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Author Topic: A tale of two photos  (Read 2612 times)
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« on: 15 September 2011, 01:41:49 pm »

leonie
Forum Member


Australia
20 Posts   Posted - 11/11/2002 :  11:55:36 PM   
I have two photographs, sent to me by a friend, who's grandfather was in the 12LHR & 4AMGS - which I feel are worth looking into. One is of the back end of german biplane, three, obviously, aussie soldiers inspecting same. The plane appears to be an Albatros D.111 single seat fighter.
Note on back says "The story is that this enemy aeroplane landed near where the Lighthorse unit was, because of engine trouble, and thus was captured." Looking for further enlightenment, but think it could be at Fara, 1917, jusst need proof.

Second photo is of an australian army nurse mounted on a camel, in front of a sphinx and the great pyramid. Note on back of photo says "I've a vague memory of being told she (being the nurse) was a very popular person, who sadly met the tragic fate of being murdered, which of course caused great outrage amongst the troops." (I feel this may be related to the start of the Egyptian Rebellion.)

Any help trying to confirm the stories of either of these photos would be greatly appreciated.



stevebecker
Veteran Forum Member
 


1866 Posts    Posted - 12/11/2002 :  11:37:35 AM 
There were a small number of enemy aircraft brought down by our airman over our territory. The only photo I could find was in the Offical History Vol Viii (The Aust Flying Corps). Plate next to Page 127 if its the same?
Was a Rumbler brought down over Ramleh airfield by Lt Finlay (ex Camel Corps) August 1918.
A photo on a camel in front of the Pyramids is the stanard one taken by the troops in Egypt and you can still do it today. I have a number sent to me as they think there relations were in the camel corps because there rideing a camel.

As to the stories I have not heard of them I quickley went threw the book by S Brugger "Australian and Egypt" which deals with some detail the uprising by the Egyptian's in 1919 but could find no mention of any nurses killed by the locals. But there were many rumours around about them killing white people, many were not true but. There were some 33 killed and 116 wounded (civil and military) by the natives, I could not find out if any of these were women?

S.B


Rob THomas
Advanced Forum Member
 

Australia
464 Posts    Posted - 12/11/2002 :  2:29:06 PM 
I seem to recall something about that case but cant remember where I saw it. It was during the war and it was not related to the revolt. It was a civil case of murder, neither war or terrorism.
leonie
Forum Member


Australia
20 Posts    Posted - 12/11/2002 :  9:45:41 PM   
Thanks Steve for the quick reply.
Will check out volume 7 tomorrow at the library, but I'm certain the plane in this photo was an Albaross not a Rumbler. (The plane was undamaged and I seem to recall having been told this plane came down in enemy territory due to engine problems rather than being forced down. Could have been in the month or two before Beersheba I feel. Perhaps Diggerdave's access to diaries could provide some mention of the incident. Still, just trying to confirm.)Will let you know for sure, once double checked.

I figured most photos of persons on camels in front of the pyramids were very much like "when in Rome......." - have one of these of my Grandfather too. The story on the back of this particular photo makes me think there may be more to it than meets the eye. (Why would it be in this man's album without some sort of signifigance?) Know what I mean?

Thanks Rob too. Yes, you could very well be right. Am sure I've read something about it, somewhere - if only I could recall.

I recently bought a copy of Elsie Richie's book, "Crusaders of the Southern Cross". Elsie is the grand-daughter of Col Jack Davies. The book is comprised mostly of letters between Jack and his wife, who was based in Egypt. Very interesting reading.

Rob THomas
Advanced Forum Member
 

Australia
464 Posts    Posted - 13/11/2002 :  06:28:16 AM 
Yes Leonie, Crusaders of the Southern Cross is a very good read. I used it as a reference when putting together the ASHS Federation Gallery. I still have this concern about the use of the word "Crusader" in any books about Australia in WWI Palestine, because of the way it supports the erroneous contentions of some so called theologians.
diggerdave
Senior Forum Member
 

Australia
805 Posts    Posted - 14/11/2002 :  9:40:14 PM 
Good day to you, Leonie.
I shall look at the diaries I have and the HUNDREDS of images supporting the diaries in my possession, in regard to the captured aeroplane.
stevebecker
Veteran Forum Member
 


1866 Posts    Posted - 15/11/2002 :  5:25:28 PM 
Wasn't that Albatross D VII the same one now at the AWM?
They may know more.

S.B

leonie
Forum Member


Australia
20 Posts    Posted - 18/11/2002 :  8:07:39 PM   
Thanks David, Rob, Steve & Diggerdave,
All information greatly appreciated.
The number on the tail of the plane in the photo is D.635/12. (Easily read, unfortunatly not D.636.)There is a crowd of lighthorsemen in the background. In the foreground 3 lighthorsemen (1 obviously an officer) with their hands behind their backs, standing near the cockpit, checking out the plane.
Also have another photo of the entire craft -same number on tail, but photo is less clear.
These photographs were sent to me by Bevan Edmistone, reproduced from his grandfather's photo album. Bevan's grandfather, George Edmistone, was hospitalised 18 November 1917 and was subsequently sent back to Australia in 1918, effectively ending his war service. Therefore, one can only assume that the photo/s in question must have been taken before this time.
My aircraft mad son assures me that the plane in question is definately an Albatros D.III single seat fighter, as Bevan also stated. Still keen to learn more and relate all information back to my friend.

Thanks also Diggerdave for your offer to check diaries. I would appreciate that. As David suggested, a plane such as this would not have passed unnoticed and can only hope there may be some mention of it.......somewhere.

Thanks again.


diggerdave
Senior Forum Member
 

Australia
805 Posts    Posted - 19/11/2002 :  7:29:39 PM 
Leonie:
I have similar images from the Capt J W Smith (Medical Officer, 5 ALH) collection.
Captain Smith captioned the images:
"The first German machine brought down on this front. Wings removed to bring in from where it crashed. October 1917."
"The German Albatross Scout again ready for reflying by the man who shot it down."
And, from Cpl Harold Gleeson (12ALH) diary:
"8 OCTOBER 1917, MONDAY.
Stand to arms at 4 am.
Three of our aeroplanes engaged two enemy machines over our camp bringing one of them down which fell just over the wadi from Fara.
One of our machines was put out of action and was obliged to come down, the pilot being wounded but landed safely.
The image I have mentuions what looks like D636 over 12 near the tail.
leonie
Forum Member


Australia
20 Posts    Posted - 19/11/2002 :  10:22:18 PM   
Dear Diggerdave,
What a gem you are! Same. D.636 over 12 on the tail.
Was thinking that I was going a bit loopy (chasing my tail over this darn photo. I knew it was taken in October 1917, not long before the Charge of Beersheba, but darned if I could work out how or why I knew this - obviously read it somewhere.) Can only thank you for confirmation and will relay your information on to Bevan.

Was in contact with Harold Gleesons's grandsons in Feb/March 2001 after a posting dated 28/1/2001 re: Gleeson 12/LH Rgt. Beersheba, on the Lighthorse forum. Pat mentioned photos and diary. Sadly, lost contact - perhaps because I had a bad run with my computer which had to be reformatted numerous times. (Also lost a great deal of research and other information.)





diggerdave
Senior Forum Member
 

Australia
805 Posts    Posted - 20/11/2002 :  11:03:36 PM 
Leonie: Capt Smith (and others) did not have the advantage which we historians have today, in as far as referring to 'Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War1.'
Was the aircraft in fact an Albatros (one 'S') Scout, or could it possibly have been an Albatros Chaser, or an Albatros Destroyer?

leonie
Forum Member


Australia
20 Posts    Posted - 26/11/2002 :  12:02:31 PM   
Diggerdave: No idea if the craft is a scout, chaser or destroyer. All I can tell you is that it is a single seat aircraft with a gun mounted at the front, if that helps at all. Otherwise could email copies of photos if you are interested.
Greg Bradley
Forum Member


New Zealand
31 Posts    Posted - 26/11/2002 :  8:16:44 PM 
Here is a link to the picture you might be refering to.
http://www.equusplazanz.com/abouthorses/nzmr/temp/Image-25.jpg




diggerdave
Senior Forum Member
 

Australia
805 Posts    Posted - 26/11/2002 :  9:22:37 PM 
This appears to be an artist's impression.
It is not like any of the 'original' images I have.
I thank you for your input.
Greg Bradley
Forum Member


New Zealand
31 Posts    Posted - 27/11/2002 :  8:42:20 PM 
The picture is scaned from the Times Illustrated Magazine which is in our local Museum. In the magazine it is more clear and is not a drawing.
Regards




leonie
Forum Member


Australia
20 Posts    Posted - 28/11/2002 :  12:16:20 AM   
I am an amature, but tend to think the photo from Greg could be an altered image, due to the clarity of the horse & horseman in the foreground and the different lay of the shadows. This is definately not the picture referred to, as the numbers on the tail of the plane are not visible. (Thank you Greg for trying to help.)
Rob THomas
Advanced Forum Member
 

Australia
464 Posts    Posted - 28/11/2002 :  06:25:49 AM 
The enhancement of photographic images was a common procedure in illustrated magazines and led to many details being altered.
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