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Author Topic: Lockyer family Goomalling 10th Light horse ww1 & 2  (Read 43456 times)
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« on: 15 September 2011, 07:19:21 pm »

TammiShort
Forum Member


Australia
1 Posts   Posted - 20/10/2003 :  3:19:34 PM  
My Great grand father Horace Joseph Brooks Lockyer from Goomalling WA was in the 1oth light horse in WW1 service No. 3612 RTA 17.7.9
DOB 5.11.1888. He also served in WW2
His sons Ronald Bernard Joseph Lockyer and Michael Horace Lockyer Also served in WW2
I attended the 10th light horse regiment open day at Karrakatta 19.10.03 but was unable to find any record of them in the history book published. There was a photo of Uncle Ron in C batallion.
where can I find records of them in the 10th Light horse?
stevebecker
Veteran Forum Member
 


1866 Posts    Posted - 20/10/2003 :  4:20:52 PM  
Tammi,
I can confirm that Horace served in the 10th LHR during the war and RTA with them.

The only problem is that I have no unit for his embarkation.

He must have embarked with a WA unit but I could not find his name on the usaual WA Infantry Bn's like the 11BN, 16Bn and 28BN.

So if you can get his service records from the Australian National Archives I would like to find out were he came from also.

Good luck

S.B

maccalee
Forum Member


Australia
1 Posts    Posted - 14/11/2004 :  2:51:22 PM  
Hi Tammi & Steve,
Horace Lockyer was my grandfather and Ron and Mick, as I knew them,were my uncles. They were the brothers of my mother, Mabel Lee, nee Lockyer.My mother at 91 is still alive and in a nursing home in Northam. Several days ago I saw a photo of uncle Ron at a 10th Light Horse stand at the Canning Show and thus my interest in this site.Tammi it looks as though we are related. My father was Raymond Lee from Toodyay.

Kind Regards,

Max Lee



philmaur
Advanced Forum Member
 

Australia
243 Posts    Posted - 14/11/2004 :  8:22:08 PM  
Hi folks, It was my display that you saw the photo of a Lockyer and have found him in the records.Seems he had a very interesting lead up to embarkation.Seems he jumped ship.Originally he was No 3944 in 15th camel corps, then No 3612 10th.LH.He enlisted at Pingelly and was a policeman at Roebourne.He is shown as 32nd.Re-inforcements 10th LH but is not listed in either the book on the 10th. or the embarkation list.Spent an awful lot of time in sick bay with one of the unmentionable disceases.There is 56 pages on him on digital records.Interesting reading. Phil.


stevebecker
Veteran Forum Member
 


1866 Posts    Posted - 15/11/2004 :  06:50:39 AM  
Phil,
Yes you are right.

I have found a number of men who are not on the embark rolls but are shown in their service records as having served OS.

He is an example of "you can have all the records but have nothing".

Of cause what I did find intersting was why was a policeman doing all the things he did. Jumping ship and failed to embark doesn't sound like most police I know.

Do you know if Alfred Malcolm Brooks Lockyer of Goomalling WA served in the Camel Corps and 10th LHR is related to Horrace?

S.B

philmaur
Advanced Forum Member
 

Australia
243 Posts    Posted - 15/11/2004 :  10:08:32 PM  
Steve, Looks like they could be related as they were both born in Roebourne WA.Horace's record doesn't seem to record his mother's name.I also see some of the other Lockyers could be brothers as they were born in Northam.They all have Agett in their names, where the other two both have Brooks in their name, sugessting that their mothers surname coud have been Brooks.Hoping to make contact with the initial query with Tammi. Phil.


Amberley
Forum Member


Australia
4 Posts    Posted - 06/11/2005 :  12:06:36 PM  
This is my message I posted and I received your thread:
My great great grandfather was Thomas Lockyer and one of his son's, Elliot is my great grandfather and his daughter, Mabel, is my grandmother - married Arthur Porritt. Her daughter, Joan is my mother - married Clifford Horne.I notice that one of Thomas' sons, Horace, served in WW1 in the 10th Lighthorse. I noticed a discussion board was posted and referred a bit to Horace but I had to register and did not find that discussion board again.

It would be interesting to find out a bit more.

Regards
Shirley Innes (nee Horne)


stevebecker
Veteran Forum Member
 


1866 Posts    Posted - 06/11/2005 :  12:29:27 PM  
mate,
Horace - Enlist 26th June 1917 and was sent to the 15R/ICC (3944) but embarked with the 32R/10 LHR (3612).

He was ToS C Sqn and served in Palestine returning 17th July 1919.

The others will no dought post more of his details like being a Policeman.

Cheers

S.B



dped
Forum Member


Australia
176 Posts    Posted - 06/11/2005 :  1:38:52 PM  
Dear All,
How effective was treatment for VD during WWI? What percentage of those treated made a full recovery?
Regards. Don.
tadhgh
Forum Member


Australia
16 Posts    Posted - 10/11/2005 :  10:27:05 PM  
If the Lockyers from Northam are related to Horace I have 3 brothers sons of Elliott and late Sarah Lockyer. Their father lived at Avon Bridge Northam. three photos on page 233 Australia's fighting sons of the empire.......regards Warren.
miraustin
Advanced Forum Member
 

Australia
242 Posts    Posted - 22/11/2005 :  1:20:39 PM  
Don, VD was considered incurable in WW1. I have heard of some brutal sounding treatments from ww2 and beyond, but if you remember Hughes got a bee in his bonnet about the numbers of men getting sent home with VD, so poor old sid campbell (a medical officer) had to lecture the 8th on the dangers of that disease aboard the star of victoria and in his memoir, related that he was relieved not to be 'hooted offstage'..A couple of the men mentioned in their own papers that the poor devils who caught it were doomed.By the way, photos of the 8th sitting on the decks of the star listening to lectures are held by the awm.
why is it only the questions about drugs and vice i am able to answer with any authority whatsoever?
sigh
Smiley
miranda
Lisbeth
Forum Member


Australia
57 Posts    Posted - 22/11/2005 :  3:02:18 PM  
Quote
Don, VD was considered incurable in WW1
Hello
I think it depeneded on which VD disease one had -gonorrhoea or syphillis. Gonorrhoea was treated (though how effectiviely is a moot point)in WW1, as I have a number of soldiers' records that have the full and grisly treatment regime listed. One in particular, William Sinclair Johnston (cousin of my grandmother), got gonorrhoea in WW1 five weeks after his marriage (he married an English girl who got pregnant on one of his leave periods) and was treated for 121 days in hospital. Nearly all the treatment records for him have survived, and I can attest that he went on to have more children and lived to quite a decent old age. As far as I know from family history records I hold, he did not infect his wife after being treated. So VD did not necessarily doom one, though gonorrhoea left untreated led to many problems, including sterility.

I think syphillis probably would have been a death sentence pre-antibiotics, though even this disease could take some years before death occurred. It also seems to have been treated, though I don't know with what effectiveness. I have found a number of 12th LH troopers who were blessed enough to get both, though I do not know the fate of those who survived the war.

William Johnston is online at NAA (Sern 3838)if you want to check out the treatment.

Cheers
Lisbeth

stevebecker
Veteran Forum Member
 


1866 Posts    Posted - 22/11/2005 :  3:41:30 PM  
Mate,
If this dosn't upset "Don the spoon", I would say that as many soldiers were RTA as casulties from VD in the first four months in Egypt then those wounded in the first week at Gallipoli.

S.B

Bill Woerlee
Veteran Forum Member
 

Australia
1069 Posts    Posted - 22/11/2005 :  5:05:34 PM    
Mates and Matesses
For those who know more about vice than virtue, here is an extract from the fine book by Geoffrey Barr called "Australian Military Police, Beyond the Myth" reading from Chapter 3:

++++

SYPHILIS, A MILITARY PROBLEM

No man who is sick or even out of sorts is any good as a soldier. A sick man is just a burden and a nuisance to an army, and if he has brought disease on himself by his own fault, it may be truly said that he is fighting against his own side and helping the enemy.95

Members of the AIF arrived in Egypt with money to bum and in those first few months liberal leave was granted. Locally made liquor with extremely high alcohol content was readily available and cheap, as were the local prostitutes. Indeed, situated behind the Esbekiah Gardens run by the Red Cross were the prostitutes' quarters. Here there were more than 3,000 licensed prostitutes and an estimated further 20,000 unlicensed. The combination of these two factors was to lead to an explosion in the number of cases of VD being reported to the AMO.96

The only policing of brothels in the red light districts was carried out by the now thoroughly despised CMPs. AIF picquets also patrolled these areas in an attempt to maintain discipline, although those same picquets would themselves frequent the areas when not on duty. VD amongst the troops spread with alarming speed. Unlike today there were no magic penicillin 'bullets'. And there was of course a belief among the troops that a soldier had the right to spend his money on whatever and whomever he pleased.


35

Beyond The Myth

By early 1915, VD had reached epidemic proportions among members of the AIF and the demand for hospital beds had stretched the resources of the Australian General Hospital (AGH) to breaking point. By April 1915, there were no available beds for the impending campaign (Gallipoli). Therefore, on 27 April 1915, the Minister for Defence, Senator Pearce, agreed that all cases of VD would be repatriated back to Australia along with those to be discharged as undesirables. The numbers of men returned to Australia in late 1915 reached 8,454. Hemming reported:

'Arrival of Kyarra. Three Hundred Men Returned. The Hospital ship Kyarra, with 304 troops returned from Egypt on hoard... The cases on board are not casualties of battle they are cases which invariably occur in camp... And many of these cases are medical the results of the men's own folly... The others 131 in number — are those troops of which we heard some time ago men who proved not amenable to discipline, and who will be discharged upon landing.97

With no formal monitoring of brothels to identify prostitutes who were spreading VD and no monitoring of street walkers, the men, especially those who were themselves not worldly, were unable to know which women were infected and which brothels they should stay away from. Some brothels were placed out of bounds, but this was more because of other problems associated with them; men had their drinks spiked and their money stolen.

The only solution those in command seemed capable of formulating was to place the responsibility for becoming infected entirely on the men. It was after all the duty of every soldier to keep himself fit and free from disease.98

The prevalence of VD was no surprise to those in command; it had already been detected in troops serving with the AN&MEF. Colonel Holmes, commander of the AN&MEF had complained bitterly that there had been no Short Arm Parade (inspection of the penis by Medical Officers) prior to the troops embarking for German New Guinea. In fact there were a number of men serving with the AN&MEF who returned to Australia infected with VD."

The number of cases of men found to be infected with VD in training camps in Australia became so alarming that a special hospital was set up for their treatment.

In future all venereal cases are not to be sent to Field Hospital Liverpool Camp. A camp has now been established at Milson Island, Hawkesbury River, where all military cases are to be treated. They are to be sent there under escort.'100

Bean, in 1915 tried to warn the men of the dangers of VD in his book. What to Know in Egypt. In it he warned the troops against having unprotected sex:

'Cairo has made itself a name in the world as a hotbed of both gonorrhoea and syphilis. .. Almost every village contains syphilis. And if a man will not steer altogether clear of the risk by exercising a little restraint, his only sane course is to provide himself with certain prophylactics beforehand to lesson the chance of disastrous result' 101

The Wasser riots began in the red light district, a place where some of the more notorious brothels were located. The court of inquiry held into the 2nd Battle of the Wasser in November 1915 found that colonial troops were directly to blame and directed that colonial funds be used to pay for losses and injuries caused in the riot.102

36

Australian Military Police

The failure to openly and effectively manage this sensitive issue had an obvious impact on the men's health. Birdwood, like all other commanders, was aware that Australian troops were at risk, but he too chose to ignore the problem.

' General Sir William Birdwood later entrusted me with the organisation of a moral and military campaign against the disease, so far as the Australian troops were concerned. He informed me, however, that fie was unable to authorise the use of prophylactics, and that any medical officer who adopted that policy must do so entirely on his own responsibility'.103

Finally the AIF introduced the Prophylactic Kit which was to be a panacea. It was hoped that it would drastically cut the numbers of men reporting sick with VD. The kit contained a tube of calomel (mercurous chloride) ointment, silver salts, and in some cases a piece of calico with a hole in the centre to slip over the genitals and protect the clothing.104 The kit was soon unpopular with the men and it is not difficult to understand why; it would have been virtually impossible for an intoxicated soldier to complete the elaborate rituals before and after intercourse. Hemming noted:

'Instructions contained within the kits stipulated thorough washing prior to intercourse and the application of some of the calomel ointment. After intercourse urination was recommended so as to cleanse the canal, as well as a second application of the ointment, by inserting the tube the full length into the canal and squeezing out half the contents and rubbing on the remainder externally. 106

Further problems arose with the kit when prostitutes refused to have sex with any soldier wishing to use it because the ointment caused blistering.106 However, the ever resourceful Australians soon found a ready market for their prophylactic kits; they sold them to the locals who used the calomel ointment to kill head lice. Selling the kit enabled the men to acquire more money to spend on alcohol and women.107

Contracting VD had wider implications for the men; a soldier of the 3rd Light Horse serving in Egypt complained that his pay had been stopped while in hospital undergoing treatment for VD. The soldier stated that his pay had been docked some £68.00, and that it would take him eighteen months before he could draw further pay.108 On investigation of his complaint, this docking of pay was found to have severe consequences for those suffering from VD, especially for married men and those who had allotted some of their pay to a loved one.

With reference to attached query by C.O. 3rd A.L.H. Regiment, your attention is directed to A.I.F. Order No. 134, copy of which is attached. This has been in force for many months and is the order which governs the loss of pay in respect to Venereal Disease contracted by members of the Australian Imperial Force...109 Any member of the AIF will forfeit any pay or field allowance for every day that he is in hospital suffering VD unless he can prove to the satisfaction of the D.M.S. AIF that such VD was inherited or acquired prior to enlistment in the AIF.

This order was to change a number of times during the war. In January 1918 the order stated that:

A member of the Australian Imperial Force will forfeit one third of his full daily rate of pay (including deferred pay) for every day lie is in hospital suffering venereal disease.111

37

Beyond The Myth

As the number of cases of VD increased so, belatedly, did the resolve to reduce the number of men being infected. It was becoming all too clear that the number of trained personnel it took to treat a VD patient placed an undue strain on resources. Concerns were also raised about the number of men who were unfit for active service. It was therefore decided to better prepare the men to protect themselves from contracting VD. All members of the AIF were issued with a pocketsize book warning them of the dangers.

Your officers have taught you that the first duty of a soldier is obedience. I, as a medical man, would say that your second duty is to keep fit. No man who is sick or even out of sorts is any good as a soldier. Let me speak very plainly, hut without any exaggeration. It is by going with loose women and acquiring one or other of the foul diseases known as syphilis or gonorrhoea. Syphilis is easily acquired, and once the poison gets into the system, it may rot any or every part of the body. 112

Dr Richard Arthur, MLA, produced a similar booklet containing a much stronger message for officers, which left them in no doubt as to their duty to themselves and their men.113
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